Currently,
I'm sitting on my comfy couch Tivo-ing National Geo's "The Gospel of Judas." I don't know much about it yet, but a blip I heard on NPR identified it as a Gnostic gospel.
Anyhow this got me thinking, in part because of a discussion we had in our Mark Sunday school group this morning.
How do you deal with Judas' betrayal?
I guess I'm not really looking for an answer from a Calvinist...I think I got a good idea of how you might respond. But to my Arminian, Molonist, Open Theist, or mystery card friends, how do you deal with Judas betrayal of Jesus.
The Open Theist answers that God only predicted that someone would betray Jesus and based on human predictability knew that someone would fulfill the act, but not necessarily Judas. I'm not real sure how that one gets worked...maybe at the point of prophecy the finite number of might counterfactuals all included the story line of disciple betrays Jesus or something.
Even so, even open theisms ambiguous prophecy renders a future human free choice certain. Is this problematic? Could Judas be forgiven and with God in paradise?
love to hear some feedback.
Carney
4 comments:
Ohhhh... Dante is SO pissed right now. He's going to have to rewrite that whole damn thing.
As an open theist I do beleive that God can in order to fulfill his will direct even people (Pharoah wass already hard but God made sure he stayed that way for instance) but that being said I don't think so here. One of things I have remarked about in the many times I have taught Life of Christ over the years is that the night before Jesus picked his disciples he stayed up all night in prayer. Hmmmmm. My thoughts are that Jesus picked Judas because he was the one most likely to fulfill the role set for him as betrayer. Another thing is that even the night Jesus was betrayer many thought they could be that one -- not a betrayal of wilfull intent necessarily then? Maybe a betrayal of circumstances is what the disciples thought. In any case, how many disciples did Jesus have -- more than the 12 I can tell you. Anyone of them could have fullfilled the prophecy and given humans it does not take much to find the one that could be influence by satan to do it. God also has power and he can use it subtilty to make sure his promises and prophecies come to pass not by just taking over or even knowing the future but simply a nudge here or there. Kind of like what Screwtape said to Wormwood by the great write C.S. Lewis -- just one thoguht and the natural inclinations of that human heart take over.
I don't know if this helps but it might be a good thought for the future on my open theism blog. Say the question and thought I would give it a try.
Pastor Ed,
tbanks for taking the time to respond. Your answer is a good one, but what do you think about the nature of prophecy and the open future.
Craig for example argues that the key is to understand that the relationship between human freedom and foreknowledge is not causal, and I suppose that could be applied here. But don't you think that by reading the O.T. passage as a prophecy it renders the future event as certain, even if not the specific who? Isn't that problematic? In essence isn't kind of like saying, "well someone is going to have to sin even if we don't know who."
Your point about more than 12 disciples is a good one though. I suppose if we were to think in terms of probability this would help the odds.
P.S. I read a bit from your O.V. blog. I couldn't agree more whole heartedly on the time thing.
CD>But don't you think that by reading the O.T. passage as a prophecy it renders the future event as certain, even if not the specific who?
PE> Not really because one things I have come to beleive studying the Scripture over the years is that prophecies are not the expression of divine foreknowledge necessarily but simply the expression fo God saying he will be involved and bring it about by His power.
For instance say God in prophecy tells His people that they will be destroyed by the Babylonians, exiled for 70 years and then be returned to the land by a guy named Cyrus. The babylonian thing is easy for God because the Babylonians already have dreams of conquest -- God knows this and picks them to be his instrument of discipline becasue of it> He then just suggests to Nebuchadnezzar -- 'go south --take Judah". Nebuchanezzar says -- sure, why not! Not a hard sell for God. God blesses him in his endevors and fights on his side against his own people. Using his power to ensure victory of Nebby. Once exiled all God has to do is wait for 70 years to pass -- no power expeneded at all -- and then work on Cyrus then same way. Probably the only thing forced by God -- the guys name through his parents and making sure he gets on the throne.
What I see in prophecy is God's promise of future action as he walks in relationship with his people and these can be changed as the relationship changes -- See Jonah, Judah under Hezekiah, etc. Foreknowledge -- no. Propmise of working out a certain end through his power yes.
CD>Isn't that problematic?
PE> Only if you postulate a passive God who does nothing but watch, but for me Scripture shows very clearly and active God taking an active role in his relationship with people -- he acts on their behalf, punishes them when they sin, blesses them when the walk in righteousness, does miracles in the face of the impossible, etc, etc., according to His promises to them. He is a God who keeps his word even if it means bringing about future events through his power. I suppose such events are certain (But then are they considering repentence seems to stop God's wrath every time?) but not because of God omniscience in a classical sense or predeterminism. It just means they will happen because God has said they will and He will use His power to bring them about to keep His word, either to himself or others. It is specific case predeterminism of a specific event by power not universal in any way throguh wholesale predeterminism of classic foreknowledge.
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